Dyno: NA KA24DE 160HP/170TQ - Nissan 240SX Forums
KA24DE & KA24E KA Chat from being N/A to KA-T to KA-R's.

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#1 Old 07-25-2008, 01:23 AM
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Dyno: NA KA24DE 160HP/170TQ

Just dynoed last weekend. Here are my mods:

HKS Dragger Cat back, no cat
Custom shorty intake from battery tray
248/248 cams w/intake at ~ 3.5 teeth retarded (I have degreeing info I might attach)
Cheap OBX header
ASP pulley
EGR/Evap removed
Thermal spacers (3 pieces)
Mech fan removed
Calumsult Realtime ECU (This is the crown jewel) and a lot of street tuning
LC-1 Wideband

My AFRs on the dyno were significantly leaner than on the street. On the street I tune for just under 13.0 (like 12.7 to 12.9). On the dyno however my AFRs were up above 13, like around 13.2 to 13.3 at some points. I believe the Dynojet dyno doesn't load the engine quite as much as the car's own weight. So, I added some fuel to some areas to bring the AFR's down a little and I found optimal timing to no higher than maxing at 33 deg. I tried a few deg higher and found that it did not add any power.


AFR Clip


Degreeing cam information

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#2 Old 07-25-2008, 03:13 AM
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Wow, nice numbers, next time you should try tuning it for 12.5 cause I noticed that our engines made more power around there, between 12.2-12.5 when I looked at dyno comparisons. Very Nice numbers.Power curves look smooth as an babies ass

How did you manage 3 and a "Half" teeth?

How big is the dragger? 60mm?


Some suggestions I have that may help you:

running royal purple? been proven to gain a few ponies

Should throw some OBX Pulley's on there to match your ASP Crank Pulley.

also if you want you could try running an Velocity stack instead of an Filter or an Apex'I filter and see if you can get a few ponies there...



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Last edited by Scoot; 07-25-2008 at 03:37 AM.
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#3 Old 07-25-2008, 10:43 AM
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240-kid, thanks for the suggestions and information. I haven't really heard what the best AFR's are for the KA, I will definitely try out a richer, in general mix across the board. On the street, I am at about 12.5 to 12.7.

I managed approx 3.5 teeth by simply filing down the keyhole in the cam gear in the retarded direction. Same effect as redrilling one. It's worked well for me. I've been running this way for 2 years.

I believe it is 60mm. It's an exhaust system I've had on for probably 4 or more years and it's holding up extremely well. Very little rust anywhere on it, and I live in the salt/rust/grit belt. It feels great for NA. I also do plan to use it for Turbo as well. I don't feel it would be a bottleneck till higher boost levels, if at all.

I do run Royal Purple in the engine ,tranny and diff

I'll consider the OBX pullies. Ebay parts?

Yeah my filter is down in front of the wheel well, just behind the bumper cover. I'll look into this as well.

Thanks again.

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#4 Old 07-25-2008, 10:51 AM
 
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see, this is the perfect example of a car that is capable of a 200whp pull, You have 160 without finishing bolt ons and you havn't gone into the engine at all.

This exact setup with a nice port and polish, bigger cams, around 11.5:1 compression, bigger TB, maybe even an intake mani, MSD Ignition and it should be able to achieve 200whp

anyway nice numbers im sure the car is fun to drive

good luck on the build

-Travis




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#5 Old 07-25-2008, 11:10 AM
 
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^ That won't put him that much closer to 200whp. It takes quite a bit more for 200 on the KA. Plus dude is set on going turbo, making sure the engine can breath is the best thing for the KA.

That 60mm is definitely holding you back. You could probably see a 6-10whp gain if you were to go with a 3in. If you haven't already, upgrade to an Apex'i cone filter as well. Been known to pull better numbers than others consistently.

Oh and about the lightweight pullies, you already have an ASP pulley which is pretty much ebay. I'd actually get rid of that crank pulley and save up for one that is actually harmonically balanced. Only one that I know about is ATI. The accessory pullies don't matter much so you can go with OBX or similar for those.

http://phase2motorsports.stores.yaho...iendadoka.html

^ ATI Crank Pulley
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#6 Old 07-25-2008, 11:29 AM
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The car is blast to drive! And I do plan on going with Crower V2 cams but certainly nothing more aggressive than those. Also I plan on dialing them in like I've done with the 248/248 setup. If I feel that I can't get a good compromise on low to mid power to higher RPM power, I'll just go back to 248/248 setup.

I got some frankenstein ideas that I'd like to implement in the future as well, such as SR coilpack ignition. I'm in the process of getting a '91 ECU and retrofitting it.

I'm hearing a lot about the Apexi cone filter, I'll have to check it out.

I was actually unaware that our pullies did any balancing at all. So they do? I'll check into that as well.

Thanks everyone for the information.

Oh and S14DreamN, Ladies do love the grandpa look. We have a 98 Towncar Cartier Edition with Gold package and canopy top, on vogues of course It's awesome.

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#7 Old 07-25-2008, 11:38 AM
 
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Ever consider full stand alone and ditching an ECU altogheter? Just a thought that will help you do more fine tuning cheaper! Megasquirt works well, Im using it on one of my cars.

Anyway, decent numbers. Next step for me would be a bigger TB and head work. That is what frees up power N/A. You can put a reworked head on any street car and pick up 20hp easy if hte porting is done right. You could even P&P a head yourself if you read up on it.

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#8 Old 07-25-2008, 11:47 AM
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Ever consider full stand alone and ditching an ECU altogheter? Just a thought that will help you do more fine tuning cheaper! Megasquirt works well, Im using it on one of my cars.

Anyway, decent numbers. Next step for me would be a bigger TB and head work. That is what frees up power N/A. You can put a reworked head on any street car and pick up 20hp easy if hte porting is done right. You could even P&P a head yourself if you read up on it.
The Calumsult Realtime ECU really frees up any and all calibrations available. It is awesome at how well it works. It's probably good enough for me. As for the more internal engine work, I'm probably not going to do that as I'm not planning on trying to keep this engine NA. Actually I wasn't even planning on using this engine when I bought the car 5 years ago. I've just kinda grown attached to the old beast. I've got a GT2871 .64 A/R waiting and a few other stockpiled turbo parts.

I see you are using a southbend clutch?? How do you like that by the way? I visited them a few months ago. They are really cool people and they make a ferramic disc that I'm interested in.

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#9 Old 07-25-2008, 02:44 PM
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Hey S14DreamN is that ATI pulley/dampener do any underdriving (smaller)? Or is it the exact same size as the stock pulley/dampener? I am interested in it after doing some research. Looks like it's not smaller than stock, so that is why you suggest getting the underdriving done at the accessories themselves? thanks!

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#10 Old 07-25-2008, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ej2civic Last Post
see, this is the perfect example of a car that is capable of a 200whp pull, You have 160 without finishing bolt ons and you havn't gone into the engine at all.

This exact setup with a nice port and polish, bigger cams, around 11.5:1 compression, bigger TB, maybe even an intake mani, MSD Ignition and it should be able to achieve 200whp

anyway nice numbers im sure the car is fun to drive

good luck on the build

-Travis
KA's don't respond as well to High C/R's as other engines, I've become to notice that as I watched other put in SOHC pistons and 10.5:1 Pistons and what not..

And yes the OBX Pullies are off of ebay, I'm not sure on the ATI dampener, I would like to say it's not but don't quote me on that.

Also you should upgrade to an full 3" Header back system, Including the test pipe, and like dreamn said you could see gains between 6-10.
If you need proof that a 3" does nothing but gain power I have a dyno comparison sheet...

Also have you looked at the Nismo Cams? (248/256 10.7mm Lift), they also make Nismo Adj. gears...



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#11 Old 07-25-2008, 09:34 PM
 
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The ATI a fully balanced lighted crank dampener. From my understanding all the underdrive is done at the crank and none of the accessory pulleys. The thing about the KA is that the crankshaft isn't balanced, the crank pulley is though. So when you go with one of those lightened ones on the market you're throwing off that small amount of balance that was barely there to begin with. Issue with that is seals tend to go bad and you might find yourself leaking oil. The ATI is a dyno tested piece and isn't some eBay part either. It's not cheap for a reason. It works and it works perfectly. Currently the only fully balanced crank pulley on the market for the KA. I've heard/read of upwards to 15 whp gain just from this thing alone.
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#12 Old 07-26-2008, 01:48 AM
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Tonight, I tuned my AFR's down to the mid to lower 12's by raising my K Value to 265 and oh my god, I think I gained 10HP! 240-kid you were right. I've needed to be down here all along. I can tell because my loads (TP) values used to be around 101 to 102, now they are reaching almost 106 so I'm pushing further off the edge of the fuel map.

S14DreamN, I'm not sure if I buy 15HP from the pulley, but would believe that a few HP's can be gained by having something quiet down the intense harshness of this engine. I have some serious NVH in my cabin, but I never thought it was the result of ditching the stock pulley.

Thanks to both of you for your advice.

Hopefully I'll dyno again soon with these changes in mind.

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#13 Old 07-26-2008, 05:47 AM
 
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I'm saying upwards to that number. Also, that product isn't only made for the KA's. My research was on the product in general, not just for the KA.
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#14 Old 07-26-2008, 07:02 AM
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Tonight, I tuned my AFR's down to the mid to lower 12's by raising my K Value to 265 and oh my god, I think I gained 10HP! 240-kid you were right. I've needed to be down here all along. I can tell because my loads (TP) values used to be around 101 to 102, now they are reaching almost 106 so I'm pushing further off the edge of the fuel map.

S14DreamN, I'm not sure if I buy 15HP from the pulley, but would believe that a few HP's can be gained by having something quiet down the intense harshness of this engine. I have some serious NVH in my cabin, but I never thought it was the result of ditching the stock pulley.

Thanks to both of you for your advice.

Hopefully I'll dyno again soon with these changes in mind.
Yessir, been reading up on My N/A KA's for sometime now, also if you want, you could probably gain 5-10hp from the obx for way less instead of the ATI, with those OBX Pulley's for the Acc. if you pair them with your ASP Crank Pulley.

Glad I helped out with your tune, but yeah, for some reason KA's don't resonp to lean tunes or high C/R's so...




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#15 Old 07-26-2008, 11:06 AM
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I'm saying upwards to that number. Also, that product isn't only made for the KA's. My research was on the product in general, not just for the KA.
Yeah I understand.

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#16 Old 07-26-2008, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 240-kid Last Post


Yessir, been reading up on My N/A KA's for sometime now, also if you want, you could probably gain 5-10hp from the obx for way less instead of the ATI, with those OBX Pulley's for the Acc. if you pair them with your ASP Crank Pulley.

Glad I helped out with your tune, but yeah, for some reason KA's don't resonp to lean tunes or high C/R's so...

Well here's the thing, my NVH is so bad that I think I'll try either stock crank pulley or the ATI at first and then go with the obx accessory pulleys. Maybe, if I'm feeling motivated enough, I'll dyno the ASP pulley with the obxs vs. the stock or ATI pulley with the obxs

Time to run an ebay check.

Ben Moses - bmosess-grown-up-build-thread
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Last edited by bmoses; 07-26-2008 at 11:27 AM.
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#17 Old 07-26-2008, 11:49 AM
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As for the ATI race dampner, the less NVH in the motor the less wear on parts and the more power. KA's have some nasty vibrations in higher rpms that a dampner will smooth out. As for the KA crank not being balanced... meh. My brothers was balanced so nicely stock the machine shop told me not to waste money balancing it. What it is though is the half counter weighted design makes it less able to smooth out natural harmonics without a dampner.

As for the high compression pistons... yes you won't see a million HP out of them. But keep in mind that Greaser had to use SOHC pistons, a shaved head AND a thinner HG to hit 200whp. They do give power.

Will trade crazy 6point cage for RB20DET swap!
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#18 Old 07-26-2008, 06:22 PM
 
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^ thanks for chiming in and correcting me
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#19 Old 08-04-2008, 04:23 AM
 
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Awesome, but your High RPM power is lacking. Tune for peak tq at a higher rpm, and you'll make more HP.

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#20 Old 08-05-2008, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archbishop Last Post
Awesome, but your High RPM power is lacking. Tune for peak tq at a higher rpm, and you'll make more HP.
I believe you are right. If I do anything I would need to retard my intake cam by a bit more to get a 112 to 114 lobe separation angle. I think that would do it. I may or may not do this. I am looking at BC stage 2 cams in the futre.

Thanks for chiming in.

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#21 Old 08-05-2008, 03:29 AM
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BC Stg 2 264 9.52mm or Nismo 248/256 10.57mm?



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#22 Old 08-06-2008, 02:27 PM
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Hmmm, 240kid do you have an opinion on BC2 vs. Nismo? Does that lift of 10.57 require springs? I don't believe the BC ones do. I'm so happy with the way I've got my 248's set up I'm not sure if I want to mess with something else. I wonder if I could get two 256's set up the same way?

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#23 Old 08-06-2008, 03:26 PM
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Those nismo ones I would definately run springs with. Max lift reccomended on stock springs is .380" or 9.65mm

Here's a link to the Nismo Cams

http://www.mynismo.com/products/?id=3039

I mean if you wanted, run some BC Springs and Retainers and get the Nismo 288/292, I'm pretty sure that some good amounts of power right there...

I mean to me it's a good Idea because you are going turbo after this right? and well your probably gonna want more power then just those 264's depending but for me I would go for the Springs and High Lift Nismo Cams...



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Last edited by Scoot; 08-06-2008 at 03:44 PM.
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#24 Old 08-07-2008, 01:02 AM
 
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288/292 thats a cam for a sohc

my build thread

http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/sh...09#post1139909

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#25 Old 08-07-2008, 01:43 AM
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My god man, 288/292. That's some serious duration.

Yes, I am planning on going turbo in the future. I already have a few parts stockpiled such as a GT2871, a manifold and few other parts. But before I do all that I've been playing around with N/A for some time. I've been tuning with Calum's Realtime daughterboard which is totally awesome. Having that capability has caused me to slow everything down and look at modifications in a new way. I've become more of a test junkie than someone simply looking to make as much power as possible. Kinda twisted, yeah I know. I've been fine tuning my cam setup, thinking about E85 (especially for turbo), and considering an ATI damper. BTW I put my stock damper back on and I can feel a difference in engine vibration.

Anyway, thanks for the link, there seems to be several Nismo sites out there now. I'd be looking for a cam setup that has nice manners on the street and doesn't compromise low to midrange too much which is why I'm tending to believe the first upgrade set of cams might be a good choice. Something in the 256's to 264's. I would test them stock and then probably tweak them according to what I want.

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