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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
First off, this is not a bash tread. I am mainly stating my opinion and experience toward the product and service I received from O&J Performance. It's probably going to be quite long, so I'll post cliffs at the bottom.


On August 15th of 2012, I purchased a camshaft as a gift for my brothers KA24E (SOHC). The cam was an O&J Stage 2 Hydraulic cam. At the time of purchase I asked Omar (The owner, as he stated) if this camshaft required any modifications to the head / valvetrain in order to be ran. I was then told by Omar personally that this cam is a straight drop in, and NO MODIFICATIONS need to be done to run this cam.

I paid for cam as well as sent an OEM camshaft core on August 16th of 2012. He received it three days later, according to USPS tracking and Omar himself. Omar specifically stated that it would take 3 to 6 weeks on his web site, so I fully expected it to take 6 weeks with my luck.

Fast forward to about the 9th-10th of October..... After the six week mark, myself and my brother contacted Omar (numerous times) to ask how the cam was coming along. I was told a total of three times (between Mid September to early October via email) that the cam had already been sent, in which it obviously had not been. Omar never provided a tracking number, even tho I specifically asked for one. I was flat out lied to numerous times before the cam even showed up.
So the cam finally shows up around the 15th of October. I open the box and much to my surprise, I see only a camshaft and nothing else. No cam card (cam specs), assembly lube, break in specs or even an O&J sticker. I was very disappointed to say the least.
I then sent an email to Omar asking for a cam card so we could actually install the cam instead of sitting around and admiring its looks. After 2-3 days of wait time (and being lied to again, after he stated he had already sent the specs via email) I finally got the specs sheet sent to me. I first had to decipher the extremely fuzzy picture (which most could not even be read) and got the specs below:

- Intake Duration: 264 / Exhaust Duration: 272
- Intake Lift: 10.33
- Exhaust Lift: 10.59
- Centerline: 109

- There was also a "1.5" listed under a spec that I could not read. Come to find out, this was the rocker ratio the cam was designed for...

The cam listed on his website and various forums stated the specs below:

- Intake Duration: 270 / Exhaust Duration: 270
- Intake Lift: 11.3 / Exhaust Lift: 11.3
- Centerline: Not listed, but was told by Omar it was between 109-110*

As you can see, the specs are obviously off. 2 Degrees off on the exhaust, sure, that's not a huge problem, but every single aspect of the cam is off. I don't have a way to measure the center-line, but I would have to assume that was not 109 judging by the idle vacuum.
I contacted Omar and informed him the specs were off, to which I never received a message back. He called my brother and more or less gave him the run around as to why the cam was off, even stating that the cam possibly had high mileage on it and that was the reasoning behind the specs. The core I had sent was well within OEM tolerances.

On the O&J Website and various forums (Omar's personal posts) he specifically states that the Hydraulic cams are drop in cams and do not require ANY modifications to the head. So we installed the cam, gave it a 10-15 minute break in using quality break in lube, changed the oil and filter and went for a test drive. Instantly you could tell the valve clearance was off. Like, excessively off.
We pulled the valve cover and found the intake and exhaust rockers had a good .75/1.2mm of up and down movement. Thinking the lifters more or less gave up, we swapped the stock cam back in. All the sudden it was nice and quite. The lifters were fine, so we put the O&J cam back in after giving the cam a quick inspection, and once again we have crazy lifter to valve steam clearance.

I email Omar again and told him what was going on. I got a generic response with no solution or even suggestions on how this could be corrected. After numerous calculations, I discovered his grinder used a 1.5:1 rocker arm ratio instead of the correct 1.422:1 rocker ratio to grind the cam. Obviously this puts the entire cam out of spec. So I inform Omar of this, and he wanted to argue the fact that the stock ratio is 1.5:1 and not 1.422:1. I sent all the calculations I had figured, as well as the actual cam specs that I had personally measured so he could look over them himself.
I should also add that shortly after informing Omar of the rocker ratio mix up, he tweaked the specs on the website on his O&J Stage 1 and Stage 2 Hydraulic to a lower numerical duration and lift. I'm only assuming that Omar and or his grinder discovered what I had, and knew they could not actually grind a cam to the original listed specs and be ran safely.

After countless days / emails / calls, Omar offered to regrind a "custom" cam to my specs and inform his grinder to use a rocker ratio of 1.422:1 and Omar would personally inspect the cam before shipping it out. Excellent, so I agreed and sent Omar an extremely detailed list of my "Custom cam" specs. Note, Omar had set "Max" numbers on the duration / lift and centerline that I could use. After Omar viewed the specs, he then agree and promised he would get it done ASAP.

A week later I send an email to Omar (it's now mid November) and ask him how its coming along. I'm then told that he cannot find any KA24E cams at all, and asked me to send another core.... wtf. Another week down the drain. So I send another core (again, I personally measured it) so he could send it to his grinder.
I received a message that he received the core, and the same day he received it he sent it out to his grinder. +1 to Omar on that. Very prompt, and this was looking promising.
Two weeks later after I email Omar to get an update, I'm told that his grinder cannot grind the cam to my specs using the factory rocker ratio because it would not work. Keep in mind, the only "custom" part of the cam that I personally calculated was very small bump in the duration @ .003 / .050 and rocker ratio. Everything else was identical to the Stage 2 Hydraulic cam in every way.
So after another month of waiting for a cam, I'm told that he will just give me a refund on the original cam and purchase the core I sent him for the second grind. He then sent payment for the core I sent immediately, so kudos on that.

As a last minute thought, I decided we should try milling the cam towers a little. It's relativity cheap and easy, and it might work. Considering most other companies at bare minimum require slight milling. Keep in mind, I was never told by Omar (or anyone else at O&J Performance) that cam tower milling was necessary or even recommended. Seeing how his grinder used a 1.5:1 ratio, dropping the rocker shafts 0.030 should close the excessive gap.

Long story short, the caps were milled 0.030 inch and that successfully closed the gap. It's quite, and runs great.

The only issue now is, the lift is actually LESS than advertised. About 1mm on each side to be specific. This is caused by the rocker arm ratio being incorrectly calculated.

Lobe height - Base Circle x Rocker ratio = Total lift

I've spoke with a few members here that have O&J cams, and every single one of them have stated they have a lot of valvetrain noise. According to O&J this is "normal", but I can 100% tell you this is not normal at all, and your actually doing damage by running it. Not to mention the incorrect rocker ratio. I would have to say most if not all O&J Hydraulic cams (Stage 1 and Stage 2) are reground with an incorrect rocker ratio, resulting in a cam with LESS lift and excessive lifter - valve steam clearance.

I would highly recommend anyone using a Stage 1 or Stage 2 Hydraulic cam from O&J mill your cam towers by 0.030 inch. You'll save your engine from an early death, and silence is golden.

/rant


Cliffs:

- Bought Stage 2 O&J Cam
- Waited just over 2 months to receive it
- Cam designed wrong by O&J's grinder, duration and lift out of spec
- Waited another 2 months for O&J to correct the problem
- Never received any solution by O&J
- As a last ditch effort, we milled the cam towers 0.030 inch
- No more noise, and it can be ran safely now
 

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Wow, that seems like a lot of excess BS. Ill keep this in mind when I decide to get a cam.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes it was. I'm not the type of guy that runs around on forums bashing companies, but after all the time / money and effort wasted for just a camshaft, I felt I needed to inform other so they don't have to go through what I did or at least know what they're getting into.
 

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[email protected] me! I currently have an O & J stage 2 cam in my car. been in over a year! I am currently building another single cam from to to bottom an was planning on putting another stage 2 cam in the new one. Now I do not know what I will be doing for a cam for that motor now. I just got the new, built head from the machine shop yesterday. I guess I can have the machine shop mil the stage 2 cam by .03 or see if anyone has any recomendations for a hydraulic cam that is ground to specs and actually has a 1mm lift over stock as advertised.

any recomendations on quality camshaft companies would begreatly appreciated. I dont want to destroy my brand
new $1,000+ head because of misinformation and deceit.

KA24E! I have 2 questions for you.
1. How much did it cost you to have thh towers milled?
2. how much less than 1mm lift did you actually get with the O and J stage 2 cam?

Thanks, Greg
 

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Ka24e another question. if you see this.

after milling the stage 2 cam, did it put your lift at 10.33 and 10.59? or was it lower?


according to your cam guide thread stock is 10.33 for itake and exhaust.

I definately do not want a cam that has a stock lift with just an increase in duration!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Ka24e another question. if you see this.

after milling the stage 2 cam, did it put your lift at 10.33 and 10.59? or was it lower?


according to your cam guide thread stock is 10.33 for itake and exhaust.

I definately do not want a cam that has a stock lift with just an increase in duration!
The cam itself wasn't milled, the 5 cam caps had .030 shaved off the top of them lowering the pivot point of the rocker arms.

The cam was mistakenly designed around a 1.5 rocker arm ratio, so the rated lift specs are not correct. The cam was supposed to be 11.3mm lift on the Int/Ext but the actual reading was much lower due to the actual 1.422:1 rocker ratio.

So the actual lift after milling the cam caps would be 10.33 Int and 10.59 Ext instead of the intended 11.3 as stated on the website.

In a nutshell the Hydraulic (and probably the Mechanical cams as well) Stage 1 and Stage 2 cams that O&J grinds would be a stock lift cam with more duration, since Omar and his grinder cannot understand that the rocker arm ratio is 1.422:1 instead of 1.5:1. Had I known this to begin with, I would have spent my money elsewhere.
 

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Thank you for clarifying!

Are there any other companies that you KNOW is trustworthy in grinding cams to the 1.422 - 1 ratio so that their advertised lifts and centerline are accurate!

Thanks again for posting this for other like myself to see!
Greg


Maybe i should a get a blank cam and have a custom grind.
 

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great info i was also about to get a cam, and O&J was who I was looking at because of price. guess now i will have to go with Nismo or Jim wolf.

Question to you ka24E:
what was your experience with the cam in general, power gains and lossess?
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
My experience in general? Well pushing the wasted time / money and effort aside, it hasn't been a very good experience for me or my brother.

The guy I was in contact with (Omar) wasn't very helpful in finding an actual solution to the problem. He kept pointing the finger at his grinder (whom I was never in contact with, Omar never gave me his information) and coming up with random excuses about it being a "high mileage" cam.

A few weeks ago we actually found yet another issue with this cam. When it's installed "straight up" it stumbles in the low RPM's and has a lot of intake reversion. Aka, intake backfires.
After running through some numbers and checking clearances, we decided to advance the cam 1 tooth. This not only solved the intake issue, but made a noticeable difference in low end torque as well as power in the upper rpm range as well.

I honestly don't know what his grinder was smoking but the cam I received was 100% out of spec. By 100% out of spec I mean not one single aspect of this cam was ground correctly.

The lobe separation angle is still unknown.
The center-line is obviously more retarded than the OE cam.
The lift specs are incorrect due to the rocker ratio.
The duration on the intake AND exhaust are incorrect.
The stock OE cam is an asymmetrical camshaft. The one O&J sent back (Stage 2 Hydraulic ) is a symmetrical camshaft.

I guess a cam card was too much to ask for... and I'm sure If I was to have the cam ran on a cam-doctor, I would just get even more pissed off.

IMO, I wouldn't even consider an O&J cam. It may cost more, but spend your money on a quality, reputable cam company and save yourself a lot of unnecessary frustration.
 

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Does the SOHC head have solid lifters like the DOHC? If so, and the cam manyfacturer told it was a drop-in cam with no other work done you should have walked away right there. You ALLWAYS replaced solid lifters with the cam. The wear pattern created between them and the cam will cause premature wear on a new cam.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Does the SOHC head have solid lifters like the DOHC? If so, and the cam manyfacturer told it was a drop-in cam with no other work done you should have walked away right there. You ALLWAYS replaced solid lifters with the cam. The wear pattern created between them and the cam will cause premature wear on a new cam.
No, the SOHC has hydraulic lifters. Hence the reason I went with the Stage 2 Hydraulic camshaft. Like I said in the first post, I was informed by Omar himself that this cam would be a straight drop in, and no modifications had to be done to the head.

I do semi-agree about the tappet wear pattern tho. If you do a search on lifters or tappets and installing a new cam, you'll always hear that the lifters should be replaced. However, the design of the KA24E's rocker arms are very different than a typical OHV V8 for example.

On a hydraulic flat tappet OHV (Older push-rod V8 style) the cam lobe pushes the lifter up directly, which pushes the push rod up, pivots the rocker arm and opens the valve. All the hydraulic action is done via the cam coming in direct contact with the lifter.

On the KA24E, the cam lobe DOES NOT come in contact with the lifter, it contacts the rocker arm itself, which pivots the rocker arm and opens the valve. The hydraulic action is done at the valve stem tip.

In other words, the rocker arm pad (where the cam lobe contacts) has the wear pattern. The lifter itself doesn't need to be replaced since nothing has changed.
 

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Yes this is very similar to the 4g63 head setup with cam followers (roller rockers) that the cam shaft actually rides against. So I get what your saying. I am just a bit of a nissan noob. Only imports I have dealt with extensivly are Mitsubishis (dsm, 3000gt, most mitsu 4 cyl engines) and toyotas but only 20R,22R and 22re engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah, same concept just applied differently. I wish the KA24E had roller rockers. Rollers where the cam lobe contacts and solid tappets on the valve stem tip end. Combined with some porting, a big ass cam and stiffer spring, you could get some serious rev's / power out of the SOHC head.
 
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