[whitey]

Apparently someone found this offensive. I didn't attack anyone personally so I don't see why, but I'll take it out anyway in the insterest of keeping the thread open.

Damn Gestapo Mods!

 

[TX180SX]

I don't see any point other than to bash here. I want this to move in a better direction. Instead of bashing another why don't you just enlighten us with your knowledge of the RB swap. That way I don't have to close this.

 

[DrDubbleB]

ME: $1800 is about what they pay, if not less for a RB25DET CLIP after shipping. They pay near $1000 for a RB20DET CLIP after shipping. I stated clip above as I am now. And no, there is no fabrication required....like tranny mounts, engine mounts, or intake manifold.

But you DO need tranny and engine mounts. At least everyone I've talked to in the past has said that you do, and that doesn't mean just Unstable Hybrids. As for the intake manifold I'm not sure, so I'll give that one to you as well.

ME : R32 Radiator measures 21" tall. Stock 240SX Radiator measures about 18.5" tall, leaving a 2.5" difference which doesn't allow it to fit without modification to the hood. They also told me they put power fans in front of the power steering assembly and behind the radiator, when everyone knows a power fan should be put in front of the radiator assembly.

21" is not too tall to fit under the hood. If need be, it would be quite easy to move the radiator mount down a bit to make it fit, that's a simple process, but it probably can be avoided altogether. Still, an after market radiator would be better though.

ME : I have talked to three shops out here. 2 Nissan and one all purpose who stated that they would have no problems working on that engine because all engines use relatively the same dynamics and functions.

Eh, it depends on where you live then. Maybe your Nissan dealership mechanics have no problem working on RB's where you live, but around here, you need to take it to a tuner/machine shop. Dealers here won't touch any engine that isn't US Spec.

 

[DrDubbleB]

I don't see any point other than to bash here. I want this to move in a better direction. Instead of bashing another why don't you just enlighten us with your knowledge of the RB swap. That way I don't have to close this.

Ignore ******'s comment...NightXCZ77 and I are having a good healthy debate with no bashing involved. I think everyone will be able to learn a bit from it. If anyone closes this, I'll re-open it...

 

[TX180SX]

You got it DrB. I'll leave it alone but lets get some good info! :thumbsup

 

[msg]

o. . what i think they mean by motor mounts and tranny mounts is. . . the ones that came with your front clip!!!!

 

[NightXCZ77]

He's right, we aren't bashing, just having a friendly debate. I take no offense to anything and I love a debate that stays clean as this one. There are no personal attacks or people saying how **** something is, so I rather like this post


You: But you DO need tranny and engine mounts. At least everyone I've talked to in the past has said that you do, and that doesn't mean just Unstable Hybrids. As for the intake manifold I'm not sure, so I'll give that one to you as well.

Me: I know you need them lol, they come on the clip....they are attached to the engine and tranny on the clip...as far as the manifold goes, you can check out my pics on my site and see that you don't have to do any mods to it.


You: 21" is not too tall to fit under the hood. If need be, it would be quite easy to move the radiator mount down a bit to make it fit, that's a simple process, but it probably can be avoided altogether. Still, an after market radiator would be better though.

Me: It is too tall to fit in the 240SX without customization. As you said, you could lower the mounts for it, but this is really unneccessary being that the stock 240 radiator works just fine. It would be better to have an aftermarket one though....so if you want one, get a 240 one.....just to make it easier on yourself.


And I am sorry that no technicians will work on it out there for you.....guess you should move up north lol....the pacific northwest.

Night

 

[DrDubbleB]

I guess they (dealership mechanics) are all afraid since this is the lawyer capital (or is it capitol?) of the world. Remember, I am in a sub-burb of Washington D.C.

I didn't think you could simply bolt on the mounts that come with the clip, but you've proved me wrong.

Fair enough, I think we've reached a conclusion. I have nothing left to argue about.

 

[msg]

lol WE WIN

 

[whitey]

lol WE WIN

you've essentially been saying "yeah what he said" the whole time, while Night made a bunch of points. As far as the facts go if they're good enough for dubble, they're good enough for me. But I still don't think you get a reputation on poor quality work.

Night wins...

 

[msg]

hahaha.. . can't i reap another's success for sharing the same mentality?:

 

[DrDubbleB]

But I still don't think you get a reputation on poor quality work.

You don't, but then again the import scene is all about connections. Unstable is known more for their SR swaps than anything else and they have been known to take a LONG time to finish sometimes. It does bother me that they don't have an exact redline figure on their website.

If I were planning on getting work done by them, I'd still trust them with my car. Though it would be interesting to hear their views on this whole situation, do ya think I should e-mail them and try to get a response?

 

[whitey]

I suppose, if it matters that much to you.

***EDIT***

I was talking to msg there, no Dubble. Yeah dubble, I'd E-mail them and ask. what harm could it do? I'd like to hear what he has to say. And has anyone considered the possability of there being a typo in regards to the rev limits on the rb engines, or is this stated in more than one spot on his page.

 

[NightXCZ77]

If you do email them, you won't get much out of them as I didn't today, just a big blood bash over the phone where they claimed I didn't have half the knowledge they did. They still maintain that the stock R32 RB20DET has a 8000 redline.....he said he personally (the main guy there) shifts from "2nd to 3rd above 70mph. Do the math on that in 4 stage rear gearing." I told him the ecu had to have been reprogrammed, and he said, "no, it's stock, absolutely stock. I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're wrong. We have done many of these swaps and they all do the same thing." which is basically a way of advertising bs.....if you want to take the time, email, but don't expect what you know now back from them.

Night

 

[NightXCZ77]

they might also think you are me and ask you who in the hell I am since they now dont like me very much....heads up on that too lol.

Night

 

[abailey269]

Night:

I have a few questions for you.

You said you used the R33 subframe right? I am trying to picture under my car right now but doenst the Sway bar attach to it with brackets in a few places--It actually bolts to the lower control arms but i believe the subframe has a few brackets on it right? Do you still have your sway bar?

Did you have to modify your power steering rack at all to get it to work?

You said that if you use the R33 subframe, not the custom brackets from Unstable-hybrids, then it would be a little more forward and the tranny wont line up right. What did you do to get around that? Cut the opening a little more so you can get it into 1st, 3rd, 5th?

Doesnt matter to me but it may to some--can you use AC?

Does JWT offer re-prog's for the RB motor?

 

[NightXCZ77]

LoL, lots of questions, here goes:

Yes, I used the R33 subframe. The sway bar does not attach to the subframe in any place. It runs in front of the oil pan and attaches to the control arm assembly, so yes, I still have my anti-sway bar. The subframe has 8 total screws (bolts) that are attached to it: 4 connecting to the chassis, and 4 connecting the steering assembly.

I am not sure what you mean by modifying my power steering rack...I didn't use the Skyline steering rack if that is what you are asking, because it is designed for RHD. As far as power steering goes....you can have it if you want, but I didn't want it so I left it out....it's not too hard to make your own power steering lines which is what I did originally before realizing I liked my car better without it.

"ME : Unstable claims they make their own subframe which brings the engine closer to the firewall. The stock R33 suframe brings the engine approximately 2 inches away from the firewall. It allows for the engine to be moved a maximum of 1/2" back due to the exhaust recirculation lines. Also, moving it backwards would also move the transmission which would cause it to be uncentered in the 240SX mount." <---from previous post.

What I was saying there is that if you were to move the engine back as unstable claims (even though there is only about 1/2" that it can be moved total because of the exhaust recirculation line) it would push the transmission back too which would not allow the transmission to mount up correctly, and it could cause you to hit the opening in 2nd and 4th. However, by using the stock R33 subframe, you avoid this as the shifter is located in the same place as that of the KA transmission.

AC - there's a tough one.....you can use it if you have a custom AC assembly made for you. I ripped out all of my lines etc...because they don't interchange. I don't need AC anyways being that I live in WA....not just that, but what did Nissan make windows that roll down and a sunroof for lol? By using the fan in the cold position, it blows air that is plenty cold for me, although some people in Arizona may not be as comfortable....

Lastly - I am not sure if Jim Wolfe Technologies offers services on RB engines. I emailed them when I first did the swap and they never responded.....so take that as you may, I don't know. I do know one thing, and that is I would rather pay $750 one time on a Power FC from Apexi than spend who knows how much on 15 different upgrades for my ECU and all the down time....

Night:assassin:

 

[Devilstar]

i have a few questions.. was the swap pretty straight forward?.. is it a turbo engine? ( i was thinking it comes out of the gts ( ?? ) skyl;ines..the single turbo rwd ones...) also is the swap as straight forward as the sr swap? and what power possiblitys are their with this engine?.. i am still open to swap ideas not quite sure if the sr is the one i want.. and a skyline powered 240 would be fun, also is the swap still the same in a s-14 chassis ( i have a 98) and were the power-steering lines that hard to fabricate ( gf drives car gotta keep it) i would love tons of details on this swap..you can email me a website or jsut a bunch of info to rotarydevil2000@yahoo.com thanks for keeping this post open by the way i have learned alot from it..

 

[DrDubbleB]

they might also think you are me and ask you who in the hell I am since they now dont like me very much....heads up on that too lol.

Night

I'd just e-mail them the link and ask them to come on here and respond in front of the crowd, that's what I really want.


Devilstar, yes, the RB's in Skylines are turbo. The power capabilities in the RB25 and RB26 are more than you could ever need. 600rwhp without redoing internals (maybe more, someone else answer this that knows for sure ), and I have seen (not first hand unfortunately, just videos of dyno runs) over 1000rwhp on some.

 

[d240t2]

unStable Hybrids replies!

I'll go through this piece by piece and try and respond, Mr. Night.

I am not a fan of Unstable, nor are many people I talk to. Here are some common false answers they give requarding the RB swaps which mislead people on the whole thing. The RB swap is easy.....almost as easy as the SR20.....so here's their Q & A from their website and my response to their answers. I have done the swap more than once and know from experience what is involved with the RB engines.....here goes...I'll be looking for a response from someone from UNSTABLE-HYBRIDS if they care to stop lying to the public.

You don't like us, don't buy anything from us, but don't call us at the shop and waste our time, please.

Q: I'm interested in an RB25DET install, what kind of final price
tag are we talking about? For engine, install, tune, all parts, etc.

A: Ball park figure is $8000 turn key drive it off. We're working out details.

$8000? You've gotta be kidding right? Being that there is no custom fabrication needed to put the engine in, it's a direct bolt in, and the clips cost you what? $1800 after shipping?

Once again, you don't like it, nobody makes you pay it. I wish we got our motors that cheap and have them still come complete. I think our prices are more than reasonable, as do our customers. Considering we do an RB20 install about as cheap as anyone else does an SR install, I think we have been more than reasonable.

Q: What is the rev limit on the rb20?

A: Right around 8000.

Really, the actual rev limiter on 5-speeds is 7200.....right around 7k, not 8.

All I can say is, we have had our RB20DET powered cars up to 8K. You have an RB25DET, correct? Those are different.

Q: My question is, is the RB20DET worth the money.

A: Absolutely.

Too bad this engine has lower potential than any other RB engine and less torque than the SR20DET, the SR20DET swap would be far better for the money.

Worth the money is an opinion oriented question. You have your opinion, we have ours. We like the feel of the RB's better. It's all a matter of personal choice.

Q: Also, did you guys have to make the new intake for the RB20 that you have pictures of?

A: It was necessary to have a clean install, and simplifies the plumbing when a front-mount intercooler is used. It also makes plug access easier. Before, you were 1.5-2 hours from ever seeing a spark plug, now, 5 minutes.

Really, I love your guys BS....takes me 10 minutes MAX to get to my spark plugs and I have a RB25DET with stock intake manifold....you guys must work slow, no wonder you charge such outrageous prices. And it's not necessary....they do also make FMIC kits for the 20 and 25 series engines, so it don't make anything easier being how the 26 manifold requires custom or 26 piping which is made for two turbos and a 80-100mm intake plenum opening.

We know it is possible to install an RB without a custom intake. We don't make our customers buy them. We prefer to use them, because there is much smoother flow into the manifold, less intercooler piping, clears up room above the motor, etc. It does take more time to pull your spark plugs without it, and that is a fact. FMIC kits for 20 and 25 engines? On what cars? An FMIC kit for an RB25 motor in a Skyline won't bolt right into a 240SX, especially after we change the placement of the motor with our custom mounts.

Q: Will local US Nissan dealers do engine work on the RB engine?

A: No, they've never heard of it or ever seen one before.

Wrong again. Nissan mechanics may not have heard about the engine before here in the states, but they will work on it being that they can cross reference things like the oil filter, spark plugs, clutch, and ignition systems to the 300ZX N/A. Other than that, it is just any other inline six...has cams and a timing belt like any other engine...why wouldn't they work on it? They used an inline 6 back in the Datsuns....

Your experiences apparently have been different from ours. I don't trust KA stuff to the dealership even. If you find a good dealership parts counter, they can cross reference parts for you. None of us ever said that we had to import oil filters and spark plugs from Japan. They are both available at any parts store, if you have 5 seconds to match them up.

Q: I just have a question about the manifold you have fitted up to your 240sx w/ the rb20. Is this an aftermarket companies manifold, or is it a custom fabricated manifold?

A: That is a custom fabricated piece we built.

One true thing, but, it's half stock intake manifold and the rest a muffler like pipe attached to the top of it.

Woohoo! At least we got one thing right. The ones on the website now are the first manifold we built. We now have much nicer manifolds, built from CNC'd pieces. Check the website later for pics from our most recent install.

Q: After doing your RB engine swap, how did the 240sx handle compared to stock (better, worse, same)?

A: Just like stock.

Being that you would have used the R33 subframe in the swap, the engine sits higher in the chassis, causing an uneven balance on the front end. It is more top heavy which hinders performance.

Actually, we didn't use the R33 subframe, thank you. The engine didn't sit higher in the chassis. In fact, the overall engine/tranny combination was lighter than the KA+Auto we pulled out of the first swap we did, as was evident by the car actually sitting higher in the front after the swap than it did in before. I guess all those guys with Auto tranny's have horrible weight balances.

Q: Did you have to upgrade the cooling? Would stock radiators and intercoolers be efficient enough to handle the rb engine's cooling needs?

A: Stock R32 radiator was plenty sufficient. We used a front mount intercooler.

Too bad the stock R32 Radiator is too tall to fit into the S13 240SX engine bay without modification to the hood huh?

All I can tell you is that you are wrong. Every RB motor we have gotten has come with a radiator that was near the same size as the stock 240 radiator, only thicker. If you'd like, you can come over to the shop and see for yourself an RB radiator vs a KA one.

Q: I like the body style of the 95-98 body style for the 240sx, but I am looking for time slips around very low 13's to mid to high twelve's and I also like the idea of a skyline motor, which or what would be the cheapest route to achieve that goal?

A: Cheapest route using a skyline motor? RB20DET upgraded turbo bigger injectors reprogrammed ECU LSD That would get you in to the 12s.

This is true of the RB25DET series engines. RB20DET's even with a larger turbo will not hit those numbers without more boost. RB20DET's don't respond as well to upgrades as the rest of the RB engines. They come stock with 220hp and less torque than the SR20....so, could you do a 12 in a RB20DET? Sure if you pump the boost to 20psi and add slicks...

Okay, maybe we weren't explicit when we said "upgraded turbo bigger injectors". We meant an increase in boost with that upgraded turbo, over what the stock turbo could push, as well as an increase in power over what the stock injectors could handle. That is what we meant, I'll update it on the site ASAP for clarity. Do you have any proof that an RB20DET won't run 12's without slicks or 20psi of boost?

So anyone who has asked anything of UNSTABLE-HYBRIDS, remember this, you can't believe everything you read. Big companies are out there just to make money and to sell you something you don't know that you don't need....such as their "custom engine and tranny mounts." They take advantage of you who do not know the swap or what is involved so they can take your hard earned money for you to get what you want.

Night

Big companies...all 4 of us, 1 being part time and 1 being a secretary? Thank you for the revelation, companies are out there to make money. We also charge less for our hourly custom work shop rate than anyone else I have ever seen. Plus, we spend tons of time on the phone with everyone trying to help them out. Even when you called, how much time did we spend on the phone with you before you hung up?

If anyone else wants help, feel free to email us. I'll try and check back with this thread, but I only came to it because someone sent me the link.

Thanks,

Dennis Kalman, Jason Stonebraker, Jake Kennedy
unStable Hybrids
www.unstable-hybrids.com
unstable_hybrids@yahoo.com
770-860-0870